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Report for Activities of the Association ‘Dialogue between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians’ in 2001

by Christine Chaillot, Founder and Secretary

The Association has already organized in Paris three successful concerts of liturgical music from the following traditions: Syrian Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian, Armenian, Greek/Arabic, Bulgarian, Romanian, Georgian, Russian (8 November 2000 in the Church of Saint Seraphim, 91 rue Lecourbe ; 21 January in the Greek Orthodox Cathedral, 7 rue Georges Bizet, 19 April in UNESCO).

The Association  has organized  and taken part in the following events in Paris.
On March 3, in the Hall of the Musée de l’Homme, I presented a small exhibition entitled ‘Ethiopia. Aspects of the historical and cultural patrimony’. On March 25, in the new hall of the Syrian Orthodox church in Montfermeil, North-East of Paris, Dr. J.C. Chabrier, a lecturer in Sorbonne University, gave a lecture with slides on ‘The Monasteries  and Villages of Tur Abdin’ (South-East of Turkey). On April 29, Mrs Gohar Haroutiounian, a graduate  student in Saint Sergius Institute, commented  the exhibition  ‘Ani, capital of Armenia  in the year 1000’, in the Pavillon des Arts, les Halles. On May 6, in the Syrian Orthodox parish in Montfermeil, the Syrian Orthodox liturgy had the participation of Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, and some Eastern Orthodox,  and was followed by a lunch and hymns were sung by the people of the Church traditions who were present.

16-21 June : during a Conference in Saint Petersburg I  spoke of the Dialogue: The Dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox Churches’ (published  in English in ‘The First Cycle of Cross-cultural and Inter-religious Discussions on Ontology of Dialogue as the Main Value of Cultural and Religious Experience, Conference Arranged by the Saint Petersburg Branch of the Russian Institute for Cultural Research, of the Russian Federation Ministry of Culture and Russian Academy of Sciences, and the Philosophical and Cultural Research Center « Eidos » of the Saint Petersburg Association of Scientists and Scholars, under the Auspices of UNESCO as Chair on Comparative Studies of spiritual traditions, their specific cultures and inter-religious Dialogue’)

22 June : presentation of our Assoociation and of the translation into Russian of my publication of the texts of the Theological Dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox’ (Towards Unity) at the Institute of Saint Andrew in Moscow.

From 27 to 29 July, a meeting has taken place in Warburg, near Kassel (Germany) between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox: the aim was to know each other better, as well as to discuss questions of common interest and possibilities of common action. There were more than 30 participants, priests, deacons and youth coming from eleven European countries, and the presence and blessing of three bishops: Bishop Seraphim of the Romanian Church in Germany and Central Europe ; Archbishop Cicek of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the Netherlands, Belgium, France and Switzerland ; and Bishop Damian of the Coptic Church in Germany who was inviting us.
I wrote an article about this meeting for an Orthodox review in Belgium (‘Réunion entre Orthodoxes et Orthodoxes Orientaux’ in Diakonia Information Orthodoxe en Belgique no 34) ; and Service Orthodoxe de Presse, Paris, no 261.

September : I visited Armenia for the 1700th Anniversary of Christianity of this country.

The Association has been accepted by the ‘Orthodox Fraternity in Western Europe’ (‘Fraternité Orthodoxe en Europe Occidentale’) and was presented by me during its General Assembly on November 18. This has been announced though the Bulletin of the Fraternity (no 19, November 2001), saying that the main aim of the Association is to make better known the life and traditions of the Oriental Orthodox who are always more numerous in the diaspora, including Europe. And that would help the progression of the Dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Church Families.

This recognition by an Orthodox Assocation well-known in Western Europe is of course important. The Fraternity prepares a web site on which our Association will be able to put some information, which will be very helpful for more people to know about our Association (note in 2006 : this website is out of order).

A collective letter announced to the members the date of the General Assembly of our Association on December 11, in Saint Sergius Institute in Paris.

A pilgrimage in the Coptic monasteries organized by our Association was supposed to take place at the end of November 2001, but was cancelled due to the political situation. We hope to do it in autumn 2002.

The Association has received letters of blessing, among them from H.H. Pope Shenouda III (Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate), H.H. Patriarch Petros VII (Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria), H.H. the Catholicos of all the Armenians Karekin II, Archbishop Timotheos (dean of the Theological College in Addis Ababa), Bishop Seraphim (Romanian Church in Germany and Central Europe), Bishop Joseph (Romanian Church in France and Western Europe), Hildo Bos (president of Syndesmos), Didier Villanova (general secretary of the Fraternité Orthodoxe).

I also presented the Association on other occasions: when I gave three radio interviews: April 15 (Easter evening) on the French speaking national radio in Switzerland (RSR); April 28 on Radio Enghien, Paris; June 12 on Radio Notre Dame, Paris.

At the end of the year several Armenian events took place in Paris.
25 November : concert of liturgical music by the group AKN, in chapelle Saint François, 7 rue Marie-Rose (14e). This choir has registered a CD of high quality ‘Pénitence et Résurrection’ (songs for Lent and Easter).

Two week-ends of lectures at the Armenian cathedral for celebrating the 1700th Anniversary of Christianity in Armenia, 15 rue Jean Goujon (phone 0143596703). On 24 November our friend Philippe Sukiasyan spoke of the Armenian Church in the Soviet Union ; and Anahide Ter Minassian of the Armenian Catholicos Kevork V. During the next week-end there were other famous lecturers such as Father Renoux and Jean-Pierre Mahé.

7 December : The Catholicos of Armenia, Karekine II, visited the Theological Institute of Saint Sergius.

8 November : the French Senate has recognized the genocide committed against the Armenians at the beginning of the 20th century, which also touched the Syriac Christians.

16 November : the Coptic Patriarch Shenouda was received in public in UNESCO ; 17 November : meeting with him in the Coptic parish in Chatenay Malabry , near Paris

19 November : Concert of traditionnal Russian music and songs, rue Boileau in Paris

An exhibition on Ethiopian Art took place until mid-January 2002 in the Espace Lautréamont in the Halles in Paris (next to the Church of Saint Eustache)

Speech by Christine Chaillot in Warburg 27 July 2001:

In a few words I would like to introduce the new Association, ‘Inter Orthodox Dialogue’, which I have founded in Paris in December 2000, and to explain its aims and activities. I am the secretary and Father Boris Bobrinskoy, the Dean of Saint Sergius Theological School in Paris is the President. By ‘Inter Orthodox Dialogue’ I mean the Dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian Orthodox and Armenian). ‘Inter Orthodox Dialogue’ is also the name of the publishing house for my books, printed since 1993. (Rôle des images et vénération des icônes dans les Églises orthodoxes orientales , (Geneva, 1993 ), The Malankara Orthodox Church ( Geneva, 1996), Towards Unity. The Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches , (Geneva, 1998 ), The Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and All the East ( Geneva, 1998).
Some of you know that for years I have travelled in the Middle East, India and Ethiopia and, since 1989, I have written articles and books on the life and spirituality of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, with the special aim that Eastern Orthodox can know better their Oriental Orthodox brothers and sisters and their specific traditions.
In fact, this was proposed several times in the Recommendations on Pastoral Issues of the Official Theological Dialogue. For example, in Chambésy, Geneva, in September 1990, in Relations of our two Families of Churches I, it is stated that «We feel as a Joint Thological Commission that a period of intense preparation of our people to participate in the implementation of our recommendations and in the restoration of communion of our Churches is needed. To this end we propose the following practical procedure. It is important to plan an exchange of visits by our heads of Churches and prelates, priests and lay people of each one of our two Families of Churches to the other » ... « In localities where Churches of the two Families co-exist, the congregations should organize participation of one group of people- men, women, youth and children, including priests-, where possible from one congregation of one Family to a congregation of the other, to attend in the latter’s Eucharistic worship on Sundays and feast days » (Towards Unity p. 65).
As I was meeting many people of the two Families in their ancestral places and in the diaspora, I thought it would be good not only to write about the Oriental Orthodox, but also to organize meetings and activities in the diaspora context where we live. With this aim in my mind, I thought of an Association with its seat in Paris but with possible branches in all the countries of the diaspora where Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox live side by side, still, too often, without knowing each other.
Here are some of the activities which I have organized since the beginning of the year in Paris: on March 3, in the Hall of the Musée de l’Homme, I presented a small exhibition entitled « Ethiopia. Aspects of the historical and cultural patrimony »; on March 25, in the new room of the Syrian Orthodox Church in Montfermeil, north Paris, Dr. J.C. Chabrier, a lecturer in Sorbonne university, gave a conference with slides on ‘the Monasteries and villages of Tur Abdin (South East Turkey); on April 19, in UNESCO, in Paris, concert of Oriental Churches: Ethiopian, Coptic, Syrian Orthodox, Greek and Arabic Byzantine, Romanian, Bulgarian, Georgian, Armenian and Russian; I had organized two similar concerts in November 2000 in an Orthodox church rue Lecourbe (Russian parish under the Ecumenical Patriarchate), and on January 19 in the Greek Orthodox cathedral, rue Bizet; on April 29  Mrs Gohar Haroutiounian, a graduate student in Saint Serge Institute, made comments in the exhibition ‘Ani, capital of Armenia in the year 1000’, in the Pavillon des Arts, les Halles, Paris; on May 6, in the Syrian Orthodox Hall, the Syrian Orthodox liturgy had the participation of Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, and some Eastern Orthodox, and was followed by a lunch and hymns of the Church traditions who were present.
All events were free of charge, except for one exhibition entrance fee.
Similar action could be organized wherever you live. Other projects are possible such as the following ones: Hildo Bos, present acting President of Syndesmos, the Orthodox Youth Movement, in a letter adressed to Bishop Damian on 1 January  2001, is proposing to  have a Syndemos international event in the Coptic Centre in Warburg in 2002 or 2003. We can ask their opinion from the Syndesmos members present here, in Warburg, such as Rudolf Stransky (Czech Land) who helped me to organize this meeting. 

We are sorry not to have with us the previous President of Syndesmos, Vladimir Misiuk, who was recently ordained as priest and has now parish obligations, as he had organized a similar Syndesmos meeting last summer in Poland, with Eastern and Oriental Orthodox: its friendly outcome inspired us to organize our meeting here. And we are happy to welcome one representative from Poland. Father Heikki Huttunen of Finland, also a previous President of Syndesmos, has been a long time friend of many Oriental Orthodox. He is represented here by Shimelle and his wife who will tell us about the situation of the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox in Helsinki.

For different reasons Eastern and Oriental Orthodox people from Holland and England who intended to come, could not come here. But some are ready to organize something similar in their country in the future. The Ethiopian priest in Holland told me that there was a possibility to have, in May 2002, a meeting in Holland of the Ethiopian Youth Association called ‘Mehebere Kidussan’, with seat in Addis Ababa and now with members in Europe, and whose President in Europe, Father Semu Mitiku, is with us. On that occasion it would be nice if some Eastern Orthodox people could be included. A Serbian Orthodox student in England wanted to join us but was responsible at the same time for an Orthodox youth camp there. With him, and others such as Bishop Angelos of the Coptic Church, Father Shnork Bagdassarian of the Armenian Church, and Father John Jillions of the Orthodox Theological School in Cambridge, projects may also be elaborated in England in the future.

Recommendations of the members of the Official Dialogue of September 1990 also suggest work for « our common service to the world of suffering, need, injustice and conflicts »: «We need to think together how best we could co-ordinate our existing schemes for promoting our humanitarian and philanthropic projects in the socio-ethnic context of our peoples and of the world at large. This would entail our common approach to such problems such as: a) hunger and poverty, b) sickness and suffering, c) political, religious and social discrimination, d) refugees and victims of war, e) youth, drugs and unemployment, f) the mentally and physically handicapped, g) the old and the aged. Here we can discuss together all these subjects, except politics.

As for liturgical life during our meeting, we shall have on Friday vespers in Syriac, the language close to Aramaic spoken by Christ; Byzantine vespers in several languages on Saturday; and a Coptic liturgy on Sunday, in several languages.

The aim of our meeting is not theological. As you may know a Commission of theologian experts have been appointed by their respective Patriarchates to discuss the theological issues, since 1964 at an unofficial level, then since 1985 at an Official level. I compiled all their texts in a book called ‘Towards Unity. The Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches’ (Geneva 1998), with a Russian translation in 2001. Following these meetings which took place until 1993, some Patriarchates of the two Families, specially in the Middle East, have not only agreed on their common christological faith, but have also signed common agreements on baptism, marriage, etc (Patriarchates of Antioch and Alexandria).
Some conservative Orthodox do not yet accept the official agreements and think that the texts should be more developed: such is the case of the Patriarchate of Russia which began, in March 2001, a Bi-lateral Dialogue with the Armenian Church of Etchmiadzin and with the Oriental Orthodox Churches of the Middle East (Coptic from Egypt, Syrian Orthodox from Damascus and Armenian from Antelias/Beirut).
Similar positions are found also in the diaspora context and we must respect them, waiting for more information to be given to the clergy and people about this theological and pastoral Dialogue.

Here we meet in order to foster friendship and to discover one another’s life and tradition at the liturgical, historical, cultural levels and, above all, at the spiritual level. Let us find new ways of meeting each other, of creating links and of sharing together our wonderful and ancient Church traditions. Let us create situations of integration in which people who maybe had no chance to meet before will now meet. Like artists created by God, with lightful energy, let us create ‘ new things’ together. I hope that now we can learn a lot from each other and have many fruitful projects together.

Finally I want to thank all of you who came here today and who will now introduce themselves. I want to thank with all my heart Bishop Dyonisius and Father Aydin (and all the monks and the students) for receiving us this afternoon in the Syrian Orthodox Monastery in Warburg. I also thank Bishop Seraphim of the Romanian Church in Germany for his words of blessing for our meeting. Special thanks are due to Bishop Damian who was so generous, not only to invite us for this meeting, but to offer everything concerning the hospitality.

General text written in common at the Meeting between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox in Warburg, Germany
From Friday 27 July 2001 until Sunday 29 we, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox bishops, priests, deacons, readers, monks, laypeople and youngsters, living mostly in Western Europe, gathered together in Warburg near Kassel, Germany, in order to know each other better as well as to discuss issues of mutual interest and of possible common action. More than 30 people coming from eleven countries were present. The list of all participants will be given in the Appendix.  Our meeting was honoured by the presence of three Bishops: Bishop Damian of the Coptic Orthodox Church in Germany who, very generously, invited the whole group to stay at the Coptic premises; Metropolitan Seraphim, Romanian Orthodox  Metropolitan of Central Europe with seat in Germany and his secretary Father Calinic ; as well as by that of Archbishop Mor Julius Cicek of the Syrian Orthodox Church accompanied by two monks from the monastery in Hengelo near Enschede, the Netherlands. Our meeting was in fact an implementation of pastoral outcomes of the official theological dialogue, in order to know better our Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox brothers and sisters and their specific traditions. This was proposed several times in Recommendations on Pastoral Issues of the Official Theological Dialogue. For example, in Chambésy, Geneva, in September 1990, in Relations of our two Families of Churches (I), it was stated that «We feel as a Joint Thological Commission that a period of intense preparation of our people to participate in the implementation of our recommendations and in the restoration of communion of our Churches is needed. To this end we propose the following practical procedure. It is important to plan an exchange of visits by our heads of Churches and prelates, priests and lay people of each one of our two Families of Churches to the other » (...) In localities where Churches of the two Families co-exist, the congregations should organize participation of one group of people- men, women, youth and children, including priests-, where possible from one congregation of one Family to a congregation of the other, to attend in the latter’s Eucharistic worship on Sundays and feast days. « (see Towards Unity, chief editor C. Chaillot, Geneva 1998, p. 65). Recommendations of members of the Official Dialogue of September 1990 also suggest to work for « our common service to the world of suffering, need, injustice and conflicts (...) We need to think together how best we could co-ordinate our existing schemes for promoting our humanitarian and philanthropic projects in the socio-ethnic context of our peoples and of the world at large. This would entail our common approach to such problems such as: a) hunger and poverty, b) sickness and suffering, c) political, religious and social discrimination, d) refugees and victims of war, e) youth, drugs and unemployment, f) the mentally and physically handicapped, g) the old and the aged ». So we came together to see what can be discussed and done together.

Firstly, on Friday afternoon, we went to the Syrian Orthodox Monastery of Saint Jacob of Sarugh situated in Warburg where we learned about the Syrian Orthodox history, culture and liturgical life. The questions posed were answered by Father Hanna Aydin, who is the Abbot of the monastery as well as the director of the seminary (where theology, liturgy, Syriac language and culture are taught): the place is also the seat of a new diocese since 1997. We attended vespers sung in Syriac language by the Syrian Orthodox students of a summer course of Syriac language. In addition, we were astonished to hear about the tremendous amount of work done in the 44 Syrian Orthodox parishes establised in Germany since 1981, with more than 60,000 faithful, mostly from Tur Abdin (South East Turkey) and by others coming from Syria, Lebanon and also Iraq.

On Friday late afternoon we went to the Coptic Village in Borgentreich, and started there by introducing each other.
Several sessions held on Saturday were dealing with two key issues chosen by the participants for the morning and afternoon meetings:
(1) interaction in practice betwen the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox;
(2) youthwork.

(1) Within the given theme we identified the following main topics, and many examples from churches in different countries were given:
- social issues: it was suggested to have a future common net of diaconial work, e.g. among the immigrants, handicapped, elderly, etc.
- liturgical issues: e.g. to have liturgical explanation about the different traditions, perhaps in the form of a conference; regular common meetings of clergy on a local and national level were proposed, who could also be joined by lay and young people, as has been the case in Australia for many years.
- cultural issues: an icon exhibition of the different traditions was suggested. (Bishop Damian is ready to host such an event in the Coptic Village in Borgentreich).

(2) On Saturday afternoon the core of discussion was on youth work. The participants shared their experience in youth fellowship and deliberated how to motivate youngsters to take an active part in Church life. Many people stressed that parents and even grandparents, and the example of an Orthodox attitude especially towards children and family life in general, plays a big role in passing on the faith in a lively way. The Church herself should be more open in a way to help the youth to understand the Orthodox Christian life, for instance by arranging cathechetical material, perhaps in a form of leaflets, in different European languages. Moreover, we tried to reflect upon the mutual relationship of ethnic and religious identities and upon common problems.

On Saturday evening we attended vespers in the Byzantine rite, sung in various languages. On Sunday morning the Syrian, Ethiopian and Armenian Orthodox clergy celebrated the Coptic Orthodox Liturgy, with the presence of the Eastern Orthodox, in Brenkhausen, in the Coptic monastery named after the Virgin Mary and Saint Maurice, a Christian born in Egypt who died in the 3rd century as a martyr with his Theban Legion in Switzerland. The Coptic monastery is situated 35 km from Borgenreich, and is being restored since 1994.

As for the activities of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which has been present in Germany since 1975, there are now 6,000 Copts organized in 8 communities, (23 in all Europe), with 2 monasteries and a cultural centre in Borgentreich, 15 km from Warburg, huge ex-military areal with lots of potential with ambitious plans for the future.

Three Ethiopians, including a priest, Father Semu Mitiku (Germany), and a deacon, Fisseha Teferi (the U.K.), also joined the meeting and helped us to get a basic insight into the situation of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church in Europe: more than 50,000 faithful in Europe (with about 12 parishes mainly in England, Sweden, Italy, Austria, Greece, the Netherlands, and about 20,000  faithful and 6 priests in Germany). There was a presentation of the Ethiopian Orthodox Youth Association Mehebere Kidussan, with the seat in Addis Abbaba and recently being established also in Europe.

An Armenian deacon from Lyon, France, Philippe Sukiasyan, explained about the history of the Armenian Church, its modern reality and problems in the diaspora and he also shared his experience of growing in a double cultural context.

Alexandra Popescu and Lilian Agi represented the Eastern Orthodox youth movement of Germany.

The two participants from Finland, Lea and Shimelles Tenaw-Rissanen, explained that the International Orthodox Community of the Helsinki Orthodox Parish, named Saint Isaac of Nineveh, welcomes all Oriental Orthodox living there to join their parish and liturgical life as they don’t have their own churches/parishes there: this situation is fully recognised by the Orthodox Church in Finland and they have several activities, such as family camps, excursions, seminars, exhibition of icons and Church ustensils, food bazaar, as well as the publication of a newletter Saint Isaac News. Moreover, Oriental Orthodox priests are invited from abroad occasionally to conduct the Oriental divine liturgy service in their native tongues and participate in seminars organized by the Community.

Rudolf Stransky from the Czech Orthodox Church, who helped to organize the whole event, spoke on the possibilities of supporting Armenian immigrants living now in the Czech Republic not to lose their religious identity.

Concretely, the representatives of different youth movement decided to invite one another to participate at each other’s future activities. Bishop Damian proposed to convert one of the buildings of the Coptic centre into a youth house so that youth movements of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox could share there their activities. Bishop Damian also offered the premises of the Coptic village in Borgentreich as a possible permanent meeting centre for conferences, retreats and other future happenings. Monasteries were also suggested as another option of a cheap meeting place.

Metropolitan Seraphim (Patriarchate of Romania) informed the gathering about his willingness to have Saints common to both Traditions depicted in the new Romanian Orthodox cathedral in Nuremberg.

We all agreed that conferences, at local and regional levels, on various themes, including ethics and other contemporary problems, could be organized. Some people should be appointed to organize future meetings in order to foster continuing relationship, principally through the Eastern Orthodox Association ‘Inter-Orthodox Dialogue’ based in Paris and founded in 2000 by Christine Chaillot, the main organizer of this meeting.

In order to make their presence in contemporary Europe more visible, the participants have agreed to prepare a Western European booklet of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox sites (parishes and monasteries) with addresses, pictures and maps. Having such a book, it would be easier to organize common visits and pilgrimages. People have been appointed for each region. (Father Moussa, France; Bishop Anba Damian and Father Calinic, Germany; etc). In the Netherlands the Eastern Orthodox have already published such a booklet.

Information from all Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches in Western Europe and information about upcoming events, including news from other Orthodox sites, newly published books and CDs, etc., will be collected on an international web site, which will be operated by an appointed committee with responsible persons for each tradition and to whom news, topics and notices can be sent by email. (Deacon Philip Sukiasyan for the Armenian tradition, Father Moussa for the Coptic tradition and other volunteers to be appointed).
There is also a desire to have a Church radio for Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox.

Conclusion. This type of meeting of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox prelates, clergy and faithful was held for the first time in Europe. It is very enriching to learn from the other traditions, at the liturgical, cultural and, especially, at the spiritual levels. It was also a unique chance for the Oriental Orthodox to meet each other. The accent was put on trying to find the way how to attract young people to Church, and how to increase the quality of the prayers and divine services, which should not be just a mere routine, but a means to develop a deep spiritual experience of union with God through prayer. We enjoyed very much the hospitality we received in the Syrian Orthodox monastery and in the Coptic Orthodox places, and we may say that all participants were really enthusiastic about the whole event, (as clearly shown by a young representative of the Fellowship of Orthodox Youth in Poland, Pawel Zelezniakowicz, who came by hitchhiking!).
We all came to the conclusion that it is a necessity to carry on similar encounters and events in an atmosphere of mutual love and respect in order to maintain our own Orthodox Faith Traditon, and every Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Tradition respectively, in continuity from generation to generation, which is more and more difficult in the context of diaspora. We hope to have similar meetings in the near future in Belgium, the Netherlands, England and France, and later in other places. All Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches have now many parishes all around Europe. We have to prepare qualified people to serve our churches in Europe. We hope to produce a common practical network. We shall send these minutes to our Patriarchs, Bishops and all the people interested in these issues.